Iain Watson,Political correspondent and Patrick Cowling,Producer, BBC Radio 4's Immigration: the Danish Way

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Shabana Mahmood sent officials to Denmark to study its immigration system
Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood is set to announce a major shake-up of the immigration and asylum system later this month, the BBC has learned.
And she will model some of her new measures on the Danish system – seen as one of the toughest in Europe.
We understand officials have been looking at Denmark's tighter rules on family reunion and restricting most refugees to a temporary stay in the country.
Mahmood wants to reduce incentives that draw people to the UK, while making it easier to expel those with no right to be in the country.
But some in her own party are against going down the Danish route, with one left-wing Labour MP saying it was too "hardcore" and contained echoes of the far right.
At the Labour conference in September, Mahmood promised to "do whatever it takes" to regain control of Britain's borders.
She is impressed that Denmark has driven down the number of successful asylum claims to a 40-year low – with the exception of 2020, amid pandemic travel restrictions.
And we have been told that she dispatched senior Home Office officials to Copenhagen last month to study what lessons could be applied to the UK.
Last week, we also made the journey to Denmark to find out how their immigration system operates.
Mahmood's opposite number Rasmus Stoklund, Denmark's minister for Immigration and Integration, is a member of Labour's sister party the Social Democrats.
He told us: "We have tightened our laws in many ways.
"We return more people back home. We have made it quite difficult to have family reunification in Denmark.
"You will get expelled a lot easier if you commit crimes. And we have made different programmes to help people go back home voluntarily."
There is no indication that the UK government would follow the Danish example of offering substantial sums - as much as the equivalent of £24,000 - for asylum seekers to return their country of origin, including making a contribution to the cost of their children's education.
But the BBC understands some of what Stoklund outlined to us is being closely scrutinised in the Home Office.
In Denmark, refugees who have been personally targeted by a foreign regime are likely to be given protection.
But most people who have been successfully granted asylum when fleeing conflicts are now only allowed to remain in the country on a temporary basis.
When the Danish government decrees that their home country is safe, they can be returned.
Four years ago, 200 refugees from Syria had their residency rights revoked even before the Assad regime fell, although they were not subsequently deported.
For those who have already been in Denmark for a longer period, the length of time necessary to acquire settlement rights has been extended and conditions - such as being in full-time employment - have been added.
Denmark's tighter rules for family reunions have also attracted the interest of UK Home Office officials.


Rasmus Stoklund says Denmark's biggest challenge is expelling foreign criminals
If you are a refugee who has been given residency rights in Denmark, both you and your partner who is applying to join you in the country must be 24 or older.
The Danish government says this is to guard against forced marriages.
The partner in Denmark must not have claimed benefits for three years and also has to put up a financial guarantee - and both partners have to pass a Danish language test.
Refugees who live in housing estates designated as "parallel societies" – that is where more than 50% of residents are from what the Danish government considers to be "non-Western" backgrounds – will not be eligible for family reunion at all.
In September, the UK Home Office suspended new applications under the Refugee Family Reunion scheme, pending the drawing up of new rules.
The pre-September scheme allowed spouses, partners and dependents under 18 to come to the UK without fulfilling the income and English-language tests that apply to other migrants.
Mahmood is unlikely to go as far as Denmark when she announces the UK's replacement rules for family reunions, but it seems likely that she will take steps along a more restrictive route.
For Rasmus Stoklund, tighter immigration and integration rules are about protecting the nature of Danish society.
Denmark is a small country, he says, with a population less than a tenth of the UK's.
"We live peacefully and quietly with each other. I guess you could compare us to the Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings.
"We expect people who come here to participate and contribute positively and if they don't, they aren't welcome."
So, picking up on his Tolkein analogy, if the Danes are the Hobbits, who are their enemies, the Orcs?
"Well, I wouldn't call them Orcs but, of course, the biggest challenge we are facing is our lack of ability to expel some foreign criminals."
In Denmark - as in Britain - there is a live political debate on whether the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) makes the expulsion of foreign criminals more difficult.
Like the UK government, Stoklund does not want to leave the ECHR but believes changes could be made.
The Danish government has launched a review into how this could be done and Stoklund agreed he could make common cause with his British counterparts.
"I think it's very positive every time I hear that other countries have the same concerns and are frustrated the same way as many of us in Denmark are."
Mahmood is understood to be keen to meet Stoklund at the earliest opportunity.
For Labour ministers, there are political, as well as practical lessons, to learn from Denmark.

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Ida Auken says a tougher stance on immigration neutralises a toxic issue
In 2015, the country had a centre-left government in trouble and a right-wing populist party surging in the polls, with immigration increasingly worrying voters.
There are parallels with the UK today, as Reform UK maintains its poll lead over Labour.
Downing Street is interested in how a centre-left party managed to defeat the Danish People's Party, one-time allies of Nigel Farage's UKIP in the European Parliament, to return to power.
Ida Auken, the Social Democrats' environment spokesperson, said adopting a tougher stance on immigration neutralised a toxic issue for the left - and gave it space to pursue progressive policies in other areas.
"For us, it was a licence to operate on the things we want to do.
"We want have a workforce that are educated, that have a social security and we do want to do a green transition.
"And we would never have been able to do this unless we've had those strict migration policies."
Some senior ministers in the UK are thought to find that argument persuasive.

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UK officials have been spending time in Copenhagen
Critics would point out that while there are similarities with the UK, the Danish political and electoral systems are different – as are some of the challenges.
The country is not facing flotillas of small boats arriving from the North Sea or the Baltic.
Danish is not as widely spoken as English, so language requirements are likely to discourage at least some potential refugees.
And while the vast majority of Social Democrat parliamentarians were on board for more hardline policies, there is far more wariness amongst some Labour MPs.
Off the record, some mainstream Labour MPs say they would oppose the transplantation of Danish policies to the UK.
On the left of the party, former frontbencher Clive Lewis argues strongly against going down the Danish route in an effort to outflank Reform UK.
"Denmark's Social Democrats have gone down, what I would call a hardcore approach to immigration." he says.
"They've adopted many of the talking points of what we would call the far right.
"Labour does need to win back some Reform-leaning voters but you can't do that at the cost of losing progressive votes.
"And that's what we're doing at the moment. We're haemorrhaging that support on the centre and the left."
Jo White, who leads a 50-strong group of Labour MPs in "Red Wall" seats in the Midlands and North of England, would like to see ministers go further in a Danish direction.
She argues that Labour pay will pay a heavy political price if it does not adopt policies such as requiring some asylum seekers to contribute to the cost of their stay.
"The consequences are that we go into a general election where Reform will be the biggest challenger in most Labour seats... and we will be annihilated."
"Immigration: the Danish Way" will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 13:30 on Sunday, 9 November, and will be available on BBC Sounds.
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